Further Thoughts from 8/28 (Eph 5)
Aug 30th, 2005 by bodyelectric
I must apologize for not being as prepared as I would have liked to have been for Sunday’s gathering. I had so many ideas and things that I wanted to gather together into one thing and it did not come out clearly at all. I am sorry and I would like to clarify my thoughts and continue the conversation from Sunday.
Lisa was right in saying that we should not shy away from the difficulties we find in scripture and I would like to flesh out my thoughts on the first part of Eph 5.
First, I dont think that the gospel condemns people. I think the law condemns people and it is the gospel that allows us to be reconciled God and enables us to live in harmony with the law in a way that was impossible before the cross.
I believe that the things listed in eph 5 are specific works and specific types of people that are condemned, but i dont think they refer to actual people in the church (to which the letter was written as Nicolette pointed out). When we give our lives to the Lord, we cease to become idolators, we cease to be people who are sexually immoral and we become children of God, loyal to him alone (Eph 1-4, esp. 2:1-10). We may still find ourselves setting up idols and being covetous or sexually immoral (I am sure every single one of us has been guilty of one or all them throughout our lives as Christians), but we are not condemned, we are redeemed. I believe that while we are still sinners God accounts us righteous by the work of Christ on the cross (if anyone can word that better or if I am off on my understanding of this theological concept of imputed righteousness, please comment). Therefore, while we may fall into idolatry or sexual immorality or covetousness, I don’t believe that we are idolators or sexually immoral or covetous.
My hope on Sunday was to draw attention to a tendency for us as Christians to expose sin by dragging sinners into the light as opposed to allowing the light of Christ that shines on us to transform the sin we encounter. The church is a community of overwhelmed and discouraged sinners who have been redeemed, that have been awakened and raised from the dead that Christ may shine upon us. I believe darkness is worked out within the body as Christ shines upon us. I don’t think that was made clear on Sunday, but I hope this helps clarify my thoughts a little.
i would love to hear other reactions and questions on this topic, please comment.
A friend pointed out your website to me as we are a small church gathering in a home in Dallas, Texas.
I would like to just share some thoughts that were discussed in our study today as we are looking at the book of James 2. “First, I dont think that the gospel condemns people. I think the law condemns people and it is the gospel that allows us to be reconciled God and enables us to live in harmony with the law in a way that was impossible before the cross”.
The law does not condemn us. The law was established as a “covenant” relationship b/t God and his people (Deut 4:13). The law instead CONVICTS US OF SIN and WE ARE JUDGED BY IT. God in His infinite wisdom as our Father gave us the law to show us what sin was so we could be convicted that we were sinners. This keeps us in check that God is perfect and we are ONLY made perfect through Him. The law is condemning ONLY to those who choose not to accept Him and obey His law. James is telling us in chapter 2 that if we love Him, we will obey Him. Works are carried out through faith.
I think many times today’s churches view God’s chosen people before the cross as having a very different relationship with God than we have today. However, God still extending His grace and mercy to them over and over again, even through all of their mistakes and disobedience. Abraham was a friend of God, Enoch walked with God. We take for granted that we know more about God’s character than even they did b/c we live after the cross. But, the only difference is they were living in the promise of what was to come and we are living after the Lamb of God was slain. Those that obeyed Him did so b/c they LOVED Him, not because they had to. I’m sure they carried the same baggage and had very similar problems as us living today. Many people will always view the LAW in a negative context just as many view JUDGEMENT in a negative comment. Yes, we will all sit before the judgement seat of Christ, but for many of us, this is a POSITIVE thing b/c JESUS himself will stand up as our counselor and say “He belongs to me” or “She belongs to me”. At that point, Satan’s hold on us will be forever released. That to me is the most positive thing that will ever take place!! (just something to think about)
Thanks,
Cheryl
Thanks for your comments Cheryl, but I must respectfully disagree with you. I would like to first point out that I do not view the law in a negative context. I believe the Law is the truest description of how we were meant to live. The problem is that the Law always accuses and through that accusation we are condemed. It is only through the grace that comes by faith in the Christ that we are saved from that terrible judgement. Just look at Paul’s letter to the Galatians and make note of the ways he speaks about the Law. When I read Romans 7 (esp. v7-12), it is impossible for me to say that the Law does not condemn us. We do not need to agree on this point. In fact, there are many who will strongly disagree with me on this one point, but it is the most true reading of the Scriptures that I have found so far.
I’ve just been on the seeking an understanding of the emergent church. Stumbled on Three Nails and liked what I read.
Anyway I happened upon this conversation and I must say both responses are in more agreement than you think.
The law judges and condemns us. It judges by saying you shall or shall not do such and such, if you do then this is the punishment.
We as sinners are judged and condemned by it.
On Cheryl’s response, the purpose of the law was to convict of sin. Paul taught this in Romans when he said: for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. (3:20) and to the Galatians he wrote: Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.(3:24) Paul said to Timothy: But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully.
I just share this in order to show that your two understandings of the law are not in conflict with each other. I think you are splitting hairs over wording and not truth. You both are stating truth about the law that the scriptures uphold.
In Christ,
Marnee